Peak Jokic vs Peak Curry

[tpols]

In no world is Curry ahead of any of these players.

MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill R, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, or Kobe.

Curry is literally better than everybody on that list except MJ, Wilt, Kobe, and Bill Russell.

I actually undermined myself with my initial statement. Curry is top 5 all time. But Yolk is GOAT level.

We're splitting hairs here though and I'm sure we're mostly in agreement.

[Norcaliblunt]

Jokic was swept out of the playoffs the first year he won MVP. Dude got so frustrated he straight up threw a cheap shot and ejected his own ass out of an elimination game. Lmao. Curry has never choked that hard.

This Jokic dude gets so much hype it’s ridiculous.

[Im Still Ballin]

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

[Overdrive]

Jokic was swept out of the playoffs the first year he won MVP. Dude got so frustrated he straight up threw a cheap shot and ejected his own ass out of an elimination game. Lmao. Curry has never choked that hard.

This Jokic dude gets so much hype it’s ridiculous.

Curry threw his mouthguard onto a fan. That's just selective memory.

Overall Curry had more impact on the landscape of the NBA. Jokic is such a unicorn that his skillset can't be imitated. The whole NBA tries to play like the mid 10 Warriors played.

[warriorfan]

It doesnt upset me, it's just my main knock on him so I bring it up when he's discussed. Someone thinking he's the GOAT isnt gonna affect my mood in real life for a single moment.

But if your team's down 10 in a big playoff game, and you havent been a factor, and then suddenly Barbosa hits a shot, and then Iguodala hits a shot, and then Bogut gets a block, and then Green steals a pass, and then Livingston hits a shot, all while you've contributed very little, and then suddenly your teammates have tied the game up, and then you finally make a shot and start skipping around celebrating and shimmying like you been bustin em up all game, and it's still only mid 3rd quarter and nothing has even been clinched yet I mean it's just cringe.

And then feelin yourself so much youre tryin to throw slick, unnecessary passes that result in turnovers... the guy's just always out there trying more to look like Mr Cool for the nickelodeon kids choice award photographers than he is locked in trying to convert the win before celebrating. Compared to any other all time great he's way more focused on flash and silliness than he is on converting the win. It's a fact.

I dont think the average person appreciates this difference. But it's something that to me is easily a top factor when I'm identifying things that separate guys with similar achievements on paper. A lot of achievements are circumstantial. How a guy conducts himself is not circumstantial.

what’s crazy is you went on a half decade crusade against kobe for hero balling and how hero ball is stupid and it’s only a fraction of the game that gets falsely extrapolated to meaning everything


then you flipped 180 when you want to disparage curry, now curry isn’t good because he isn’t hero balling


keep it consistent


and I would like to say you are allowed to have your basketball opinions evolve over time, just because you think one thing 10 years ago doesn’t necessarily mean you have to die with it

in this case in my opinion it feels extremely disingenuous

[StrongLurk]

Curry is literally better than everybody on that list except MJ, Wilt, Kobe, and Bill Russell.

I actually undermined myself with my initial statement. Curry is top 5 all time. But Yolk is GOAT level.

We're splitting hairs here though and I'm sure we're mostly in agreement.

Cringe

[Norcaliblunt]

Curry threw his mouthguard onto a fan. That's just selective memory.

Not while getting swept during an elimination game in the second round as the MVP. Lmao.

Jokic the leagues MVP literally was swept out of the playoffs so bad that he flagrant fouled little ass Cameron Payne because he was so frustrated. Lol.

[tontoz]

Jokic was swept out of the playoffs the first year he won MVP. Dude got so frustrated he straight up threw a cheap shot and ejected his own ass out of an elimination game. Lmao. Curry has never choked that hard.

This Jokic dude gets so much hype it’s ridiculous.

How is it choking when Denver lost to the top seed without Murray?

[Carbine]

Who gives a **** about 8-10 SRS? Like you and a few people in the world. It's a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things.

Jokic has never had a team/talent level that warranted 65+ wins. Read what I'm going to say twice just to make sure it sinks in all the holes in your brain.

Jokic has NEVER played with an all NBA teammate, an all defense teammate or all star. I believe he is the ONLY MVP and champion that can say that in the history of the game.

Jokic plays in such a way that FOSTERS great team chemistry. His defensive shortcomings are totally overblown. The Nuggets had a very good playoff defense last year and they once again are playing very good defense.

The Mavericks had the #1 ranked defense the last quarter of the regular season with Doncic and Kyrie who are not known for defense whatsoever. This just shows that just because you have one liability (Jokic isn't even a liability, not even close) doesn't mean you can't play team defense at a high level.

[warriorfan]

Similar impact but Jokic's defensive limitations are harder to cover than Curry's. Neglible really, with the caveat of Steph being more ideal regarding high-level team/roster construction.

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

These posts stress a great point.

Curry has a lack of defense (even though it gets overstated, he wasn’t a negative on defense in his prime). However at the point guard position it’s the position where it’s the easiest to hide a defender.

Out of all the positions point guard has the least defensive responsibility, and the most offensive.

So like ISB said from a team construction standpoint, Curry can be dropped in almost anywhere.

I think Jokic and Curry share the same boat while they are obviously offensive oriented players, them being so good at offense gets people to overly disrespect their defense. Both Curry and Jokic are not net negatives on the defense end.


That being said the front court has more defensive responsibility when compared to the point guard position. It hurts the team more to have an average defender at Center rather than point guard. It makes roster construction a little bit more tricky as well.




Sum it up, Jokic and Curry both have GOAT offensive impact, and hover around breaking even or a little positive on the defensive end. However due to positional roles, Curry is a better fit for this archetype when it’s at the point guard position rather than Center.

[Im Still Ballin]

2015 Warriors: 67-15 W/L; 10.01 SRS; +6 rORtg and -4.2 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)
2016 Warriors: 73-9 W/L; 10.38 SRS; +8.1 rORtg and -2.6 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)
2017 Warriors: 67-15 W/L; 11.35 SRS; +6.8 rORtg and -4.8 rDRtg (Stacked!)

The best that Denver has done:

2024 Nuggets: 57-25; 5.23 SRS; +3.2 rORtg and -2.3 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)

The bench is the obvious area for improvement. But that alone isn't going to take Denver to 2015 and 2016 GSW level. And when I compare the talent in the starting lineups? Not that different TBH. Dray, Bogut, Barnes, and Klay is nice. But so is Gordon, Porter Jr, KCP, and Murray.

[warriorfan]

Who gives a **** about 8-10 SRS? Like you and a few people in the world. It's a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things.

Jokic has never had a team/talent level that warranted 65+ wins. Read what I'm going to say twice just to make sure it sinks in all the holes in your brain.

Jokic has NEVER played with an all NBA teammate, an all defense teammate or all star. I believe he is the ONLY MVP and champion that can say that in the history of the game.

Jokic plays in such a way that FOSTERS great team chemistry. His defensive shortcomings are totally overblown. The Nuggets had a very good playoff defense last year and they once again are playing very good defense.

The Mavericks had the #1 ranked defense the last quarter of the regular season with Doncic and Kyrie who are not known for defense whatsoever. This just shows that just because you have one liability (Jokic isn't even a liability, not even close) doesn't mean you can't play team defense at a high level.

Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.

[Im Still Ballin]

Upgrade Denver's bench and swap out AG for Giannis or Anthony Davis and you'd have a 8-10+ SRS, all-time great team. But you'd be stacking the deck harder than the 2015 and 2016 GSW teams. Curry can lead a team like that with less to work with. Because his positional deficiencies aren't as critical as Nikola's. Easier to source the right parts and components when building a team - at a cheaper cost.

[Norcaliblunt]

How is it choking when Denver lost to the top seed without Murray?

Phoenix wasn’t the top seed. They would have never even beat the Lakers if AD hadn’t gone down. Shit over the hill Chris Paul also had his usual playoff injuries going on too. Lol.

So the leagues MVP and arguably the greatest offensive big man of all time couldn’t take one game from Deandre Ayton and the Suns? Lol. And on top of that he couldn’t even have the composure to not commit a cheap foul and get ejected like a bitch. Lmao.

[FultzNationRISE]

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

Curry built Iguodala and Bogut and Draymond and Livingston and Klay and Barnes and Barbosa from a box of scraps?

I dont...

I'm not sure what you even...



I'm confused.