Peak Jokic vs Peak Curry

[FultzNationRISE]

Did you guys know Mask the Embiid prefers Joel Embiid to Jokic?

I couldnt believe it!

[ImKobe]

Yea but the quality of opponent that the Warriors had through through both of those runs are some of the weakest I can remember. Not that that matters in the long run though. Still respect. But it matters when trying to compare things across years.

They were fortunate with injuries quite a bit through both of those. If you're going to mention injuries in years they lost it's only fair to mention the other side. I'm okay ignoring it altogether as these things tend to come out in the wash. But be consistent.

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

[warriorfan]

Ok so for the record:

Warrior fan and NorCali Blunt would take Curry. Mostly everyone else taking Jokic.

Im sure warrior fan, and nor cali are objective about curry and golden state tho. It’s not an agenda thing, theyre right and everyone else is wrong!


Hey did you guys know Real Men Wear Green rates Tatum the highest of any poster here?

It’s a shocking coincidence!

I can acknowledge when i have some bias, your problem is you cannot.

The fact of the matter is you have zero type of credible arguments to back up your weird steph curry hate besides “he doesn’t hero ball enough i’ve seen him at times make a turn over” or “he dances too much and sometimes throws his mouthpiece.” You literally turn into bladefd when it comes to Steph Curry, it’s weird.


If you brought actual arguments I would understand.

But you don’t.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps!

Good points, however I’d be quicker to share a lot of these reservations were it not for the Nuggets performing at that aforementioned all-time level with him on the court, over a fairly large sample.

Sure, +12.0 and +11.0 aren’t quite as gaudy as Steph’s offerings from ‘15-‘19 (in the +14 to +16 range), but Steph had at least a moderate supporting cast edge throughout the entirety of that run (large one after ‘16). Hell, even the +8.4 with his depleted Nuggets roster in ‘22 is an impressive datapoint. In the years where there was a little more starting lineup parity (‘15 and ‘16; I still give the Dubs supporting starters the edge, but the gap isn’t ridiculous) Curry’s were a fair bit healthier — 44 missed games compared to 96 for Jokic’s starters.

I suspect a large part of this really is down to the Nuggets porous bench. Do they even have more than five average-or-better basketball players? Braun is borderline, and often looks lost out there despite his big game reputation. The Warriors typically had somewhere from 8 to 10.

(I’ll grant you that my objectivity is compromised by watching their leaky bench cough up leads all year.)

There are a lot of finer points re: roster construction/scalability that I’d start grappling with more if the Nuggets actually put a comparably stacked team around Jok (and still didn’t see the returns you’re skeptical that they would).

Finally, I’d posit that it’s probably a little more challenging for Jokic to create separation over today’s league than it was for Curry in a league where the three-point shot was only just starting to become ubiquitous. Unfair to penalize him for taking advantage of this (relative) blind spot, but when we’re quibbling over stuff like this I do think it makes a difference. The three is such a big equalizer and is just inherently friendlier to parity (or so it seems).

[j3lademaster]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

If Jokic goes through LA, Minnie, okc then Boston then can we call this a gauntlet?

[SouBeachTalents]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

I'd honestly disagree with that, the Suns & Lakers are pretty clearly > the Grizz & Mavs, esp with Ja missing half the series. They did have a tougher Finals matchup, though Tatum & Butler were both pretty ass in those series.

[ImKobe]

If Jokic goes through LA, Minnie, okc then Boston then can we call this a gauntlet?

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.

[tontoz]

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.

No it would be much tougher. GS had a first round bye facing Denver without Murray and MPJ. Next round Ja got hurt. Then they faced a weaker version of Dallas.

[ShawkFactory]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

The Celtics were good but not ready. The Warriors got lucky in the West.

Both the Suns and Lakers last year I think were tougher playoff opponents than anyone the Warriors faced.

[NBAGOAT]

The Celtics were good but not ready. The Warriors got lucky in the West.

Both the Suns and Lakers last year I think were tougher playoff opponents than anyone the Warriors faced.

celtics were better than both. Beat mil and a good miami team

[FultzNationRISE]

What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?


It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.


Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.

im conflicted. Jokic is more consistent in playoffs for sure. I dont think many have peaked like curry on offense in 16 and his help in this discussion gets overrated. His teams certainly had talent but that was defensive talent with dray,iggy, bogut, klay etc. On offense they had 1.5 creators in curry and draymond who can pass but not a scorer. Klay was a great shotmaker but didnt create for others. The nuggets have like 2.5 with jokic/murray and gordon(the draymond role) to a certain extent and 2 excellent floor spacers in porter and kcp. dont look at nuggets not having any all stars, they have more offensive talent than the 15-16 gs teams even relative to era and their defense is above average. most title teams have at least 2 shot creators. the 2022 team sure had 2.5 adding poole but recent history suggests poole might not have been that good. That team was deep but had 1 superstar and 1 all star in dray(wiggins,poole, klay werent all star lvl).

Warriors had some relatively easy runs in 15 and 22 but the nuggets run was also relatively easy last year. 22 warriors faced the celtics in finals at least. Nuggets certainly will have an extremely tough run this year but havent won the title yet.

The prob with these kinda arguments, and it feels like theyre the majority, is youre talkin about everything BUT the players themselves. Youre comparing their teammates, comparing their opponents. Might as well compare their wives and cars.

How about saying what it is about the players themselves that makes you favor one or the other. Instead of trying to play JENGA with adding or subtracting justifications for their team success. Team success is a TEAM achievement. If you are comparing individuals, make points about how one player affects the game relative to the other.

Who has more help has nothing to do with who’s the better player. It’s irrelevant. Make a meaningful point about the players themselves. Otherwise youre copping out.

[j3lademaster]

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.

Murray and mpj injured 1st round, no Ja Memphis 2nd, even younger Luka without Kyrie and worse front court, and a worse version of Boston? Lol

[NBAGOAT]

The prob with these kinda arguments, and it feels like theyre the majority, is youre talkin about everything BUT the players themselves. Youre comparing their teammates, comparing their opponents. Might as well compare their wives and cars.

How about saying what it is about the players themselves that makes you favor one or the other. Instead of trying to play JENGA with adding or subtracting justifications for their team success. Team success is a TEAM achievement. If you are comparing individuals, make points about how one player affects the game relative to the other.

Who has more help has nothing to do with who’s the better player. It’s irrelevant. Make a meaningful point about the players themselves. Otherwise youre copping out.

well jokic is a beast scoring in the paint and goat lvl playmaking. Never seen that combination in history. No one in history has shot like curry. Just opens up easy layups for his teammates but doesnt show up in box score. Jokic is decent as shooter too and curry can get to the rim pretty well. When you have 2 guys who are historically good but play very differently it's hard to compare so you start looking at team results accounting for teammate quality. Defense jokic is likely slightly better but doesnt matter too much. I dont think many people in history have peaked on offense like 16 rs curry but playoffs were a fall off. Tbf, Jokic also hasnt gone 100% in the regular season for a few years last time was likely 2022 when he had to with injuries to murray/porter. EPM does agree with me jokic is a 7.5 on offense last 4 years. curry's 2nd and 3rd best years are around 7.5 but he's a 9.2 in 16.

[1987_Lakers]

Seems like it would be similar to what Steph did in 2022.

[FultzNationRISE]

well jokic is a beast scoring in the paint and goat lvl playmaking. Never seen that combination in history. No one in history has shot like curry. Just opens up easy layups for his teammates but doesnt show up in box score. Jokic is decent as shooter too and curry can get to the rim pretty well. When you have 2 guys who are historically good but play very differently it's hard to compare so you start looking at team results accounting for teammate quality. Defense jokic is likely slightly better but doesnt matter too much. I dont think many people in history have peaked on offense like 16 rs curry but playoffs were a fall off. Tbf, Jokic also hasnt gone 100% in the regular season for a few years last time was likely 2022 when he had to with injuries to murray/porter. EPM does agree with me jokic is a 7.5 on offense last 4 years. curry's 2nd and 3rd best years are around 7.5 but he's a 9.2 in 16.

I like that better