Peak Magic Johnson vs Peak Jokic

[SouBeachTalents]

Some people will call this an amateur evaluation, but the fact remains Magic became a household name at his peak. Soccer moms have no fukkin clue who Jokic is.

Iverson was MUCH more popular than Duncan, it genuinely means fvck all when evaluating who's better at basketball.

[plowking]

Jokic. Bird was better than Magic, and Jokic is a better Bird.

[elementally morale]

It's hard. I started watching in the early 80s and was a Laker fan. So Magic has always been #1 but you had to respect Bird just as well. Kareem was not 'Kareem' by the mid 80s when I started to appreciate things like footwork and defense, so next in line was Hakeem for me. Then Kobe, who for some reason really touched me despite his playing style (I don't usually like ballhogs). I really liked McHale, Nash, Dirk, Kidd... many players I wasn't really rooting for.

I feel like Magic and Jokic is a valid comparison peak wise. As is Bird and Jokic. Wouldn't say one is better than the other. Have to think about this one. Jokic' career is not over.

[beasted]

Iverson was MUCH more popular than Duncan, it genuinely means fvck all when evaluating who's better at basketball.

I think it does. If a player influenced a whole generation of fans and kids are at the park practicing showtime fast breaks and no look passes, it counts for something.

[tpols]

There's nothing Magic does better than Jokic.

Equal GOAT passers
Jokic is a better rebounder.
Jokic is a better scorer and shooter.
Jokic is an equal or maybe slightly better defender.

It's an easy choice.

[j3lademaster]

OP, make one for Embiid vs Magic.

[Norcaliblunt]

What legendary all time great teams has Jokic even faced let alone beat?

[jayfan]

This is a hard one. They played in two drastically different eras.

Actually agree with op on this point - eras don't really matter to the question. If you were fortunate enough to see both play at their best, who do you feel was the better player?

.

[HoopsNY]

I actually think Magic has one of the weaker peaks compared to the other top 10 greats. Arguably the GOAT playmaker, but his lack of scoring and defense compared to guys like MJ, LeBron, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem etc is pretty noticable. Bird also had a better peak than Magic.

Has Jokic ever led a #1 offense?

'16 DEN: 17th
'17 DEN: 4th
'18 DEN: 6th
'19 DEN: 6th
'20 DEN: 5th
'21 DEN: 7th
'22 DEN: 6th
'23 DEN: 5th
'24 DEN: 5th

'21-'24 w/Jokic: 118.2 ORTG
'21-'24 w/o Jokic: 111.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +6.5

During Jokic's peak, we haven't seen an offense ranked higher than 5th. Magic had the luxury of a stacked team coming in, but what about after Kareem fell off, from '87 onward?

'87 LAL: 1st
'88 LAL: 2nd
'89 LAL: 1st
'90 LAL: 1st
'91 LAL: 5th

'87-'91 w/Magic: 114.7 ORTG
'87-'91 w/o Magic: 106.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +8.0

The samples are small for games missed (24 for Jokic and 25 for Magic), but I think it does count for something given the games are equal and seemingly large enough.

In 1996, LA had a 115.0 ORTG with Magic and a 110.2 ORTG without him. Basically they were a 2nd ranked offense with him and a 9th ranked offense without him. And that's a 36 year old Magic.

I'm also curious about why you think his scoring wasn't enough? He had multiple seasons average 22-24 PPG during that stretch while also dishing 12-13 assists. That's pretty insane.

[Mask the Embiid]

Remember these 8 names fellas ^. Look at them real good. Never! Never! Never take anything they say serious in a basketball discussion again. One of these dudes is literally named after magic Johnson….you can’t make this up.

Magic Johnson’s playoff resume. Bird,Dr J, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Stockton,Alex English, Drexler, Hakeem,Kevin Johnson, Mark Aguirre,George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, And Run TMC warriors.

Literally, a who’s who of the top 100.

Nikola Jokic resume. Threw games to avoid James harden in the playoffs, beating a 40-year-old Lebron James, getting eliminated from the playoffs in the last game of the season by Russell Westbrook, Getting outplayed and losing to CJ McCollum in a playoff series, Going 7 games with Demar Derozan in a playoff series, Took him years to beat out Jusuf Nurkic for a starting job, going to hell & back just to beat a 22-year-old Ant-man and has been swept in the playoffs by the great “Dev Book”.



This is your king!? Huh????? Is this your king!?

[tontoz]

As an old guy who watched Magic in college, i am taking Jokic. He can dominate a game scoring in a way that Magic couldn't.

James Worthy was the 3rd wheel for the Lakers and was a 7 time All-Star. Magic had a far stronger supporting cast. I don't see him winning a ring with the talent Jokic is playing with.

[Duffy Pratt]

Remember these 8 names fellas ^. Look at them real good. Never! Never! Never take anything they say serious in a basketball discussion again. One of these dudes is literally named after magic Johnson….you can’t make this up.

Magic Johnson’s playoff resume. Bird,Dr J, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Stockton,Alex English, Drexler, Hakeem,Kevin Johnson, Mark Aguirre,George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, And Run TMC warriors.

Literally, a who’s who of the top 100.

Nikola Jokic resume. Threw games to avoid James harden in the playoffs, beating a 40-year-old Lebron James, getting eliminated from the playoffs in the last game of the season by Russell Westbrook, Getting outplayed and losing to CJ McCollum in a playoff series, Going 7 games with Demar Derozan in a playoff series, Took him years to beat out Jusuf Nurkic for a starting job, going to hell & back just to beat a 22-year-old Ant-man and has been swept in the playoffs by the great “Dev Book”.



This is your king!? Huh????? Is this your king!?

You discount the possibility that someone would vote for Jokic just to troll you.

Just a few points to make about this: the question of eras is definitely relevant. The question wouldn’t be fair to put until it’s clear that Jokic has passed his peak. iMO, he is still improving season by season. This year, there was a slight letdown in his offense, accompanied by a rather large improvement in his defense.

It’s ridiculous to bring up his opponents without also bringing up supporting casts. For example, sixth man on Magic’s Lakers was Michael Cooper, who is now in the hall of fame and is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever. Sixth man for Jokic is Christian Braun. This relates to eras. Great teams in Magic’s era would have three hall of famers, at least. The Lakers had four. The 86 Celtics had five. A great team today might have two. Jokic has played his entire career without another all-star. You might, at least, mention this.

Put Magic on this Denver team, without Jokic, and they would get knocked out of the playoffs early. Put Jokic on the eighties Lakers, with Scott Worthy, Kareem Cooper and Green? They would still compete with the Celtics, but with a very different style. I think the Celtics would win that because I’m not clear about who would run a two-man game with Jokic.

If Jokic retired today, I would say Magic had the better career. If Magic hadn’t “attained” the HIV virus, who knows how much more he would have had. Basically, it’s a dumb question.

[tpols]

People forget how trash the 1980s West was.

In 1987 on magics best team ever at 65 wins the top players he faced to make the Finals were Alex English, Sleepy Floyd, Joe Barry Carrol, and X-man. While James Worthy was hanging 30+ on him. Joke competition. They basically swept to The Finals.

Jokic OTOH had to go through Lebron, AD, Durant, Booker, Anthony Edwards etc. A world of a difference in competition. Having a free trip to the Finals every year is easy mode. It makes winning sooo much easier because you really only have to beat 1 team while being fully rested. The Celtics had to go through dog fight just to make The Finals.

[j3lademaster]

People forget how trash the 1980s West was.

In 1987 on magics best team ever at 65 wins the top players he faced to make the Finals were Alex English, Sleepy Floyd, Joe Barry Carrol, and X-man. While James Worthy was hanging 30+ on him. Joke competition. They basically swept to The Finals.

Jokic OTOH had to go through Lebron, AD, Durant, Booker, Anthony Edwards etc. A world of a difference in competition. Having a free trip to the Finals every year is easy mode. It makes winning sooo much easier because you really only have to beat 1 team while being fully rested. The Celtics had to go through dog fight just to make The Finals.

Yup. Beat 42, 37 and 39 win juggernauts to get to the finals. Joker otoh, is feasting on the stacked west while Embiid is out injuring his opponents in frustration because he loses 4-1 in the first round of the weak east with Maxey averaging an efficient 30 ppg.

[mr4speed]

Remember these 8 names fellas ^. Look at them real good. Never! Never! Never take anything they say serious in a basketball discussion again. One of these dudes is literally named after magic Johnson….you can’t make this up.

Magic Johnson’s playoff resume. Bird,Dr J, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Stockton,Alex English, Drexler, Hakeem,Kevin Johnson, Mark Aguirre,George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, And Run TMC warriors.

Literally, a who’s who of the top 100.

Nikola Jokic resume. Threw games to avoid James harden in the playoffs, beating a 40-year-old Lebron James, getting eliminated from the playoffs in the last game of the season by Russell Westbrook, Getting outplayed and losing to CJ McCollum in a playoff series, Going 7 games with Demar Derozan in a playoff series, Took him years to beat out Jusuf Nurkic for a starting job, going to hell & back just to beat a 22-year-old Ant-man and has been swept in the playoffs by the great “Dev Book”.



This is your king!? Huh????? Is this your king!?

You want to talk about peak Jokic and then slam the same player? Ok, lets do the same thing with Magic. From Magic's book titled "Touch" from page 74 talking about taking the last shot in a game = "I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it. I wasn't used to those situations. Kareem was the 1st option, Jamaal was second and Norm third. I just got crumbs but that was cool; that's all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship series vs Boston". This is Magic after playing 5 seasons!!!
In 1981 vs Houston in the playoffs, in the deciding game 3 in LA, Magic shot 2 of 14 and 6 of 11 FT ( 2 misses late in the game) and then shot an airball on the last possession. In 1983 Finals, LA gets swept by the Sixers and Magic shoots 40.3% in the series and commits a record 24 turnovers in 4 games. In 1984 Finals vs Boston plays poorly in clutch moments during several games. In 1985 Finals Magic was solid but lets not forget Kareem was the 1985 FMVP and the reason LA finally beat Boston. In the 91 Finals LA wins game 1 in OT and then Bulls sweep LA in the next 4 games = Magic getting assists but only shooting 41.3% Magic was never a good defender and we can find bad games and bad series on any player if we want to. My vote is for Jokic and his career is far from over.