Peak Magic Johnson vs Peak Jokic

[SouBeachTalents]

Yup. Beat 42, 37 and 39 win juggernauts to get to the finals. Joker otoh, is feasting on the stacked west while Embiid is out injuring his opponents in frustration because he loses 4-1 in the first round of the weak east with Maxey averaging an efficient 30 ppg.

Excuse me, Embiid lost 4-2, and he nearly made it past the 2nd round a couple of times. It should frankly be him getting compared to Magic, not this fat overrated Euro slob.

[tontoz]

You want to talk about peak Jokic and then slam the same player? Ok, lets do the same thing with Magic. From Magic's book titled "Touch" from page 74 talking about taking the last shot in a game = "I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it. I wasn't used to those situations. Kareem was the 1st option, Jamaal was second and Norm third. I just got crumbs but that was cool; that's all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship series vs Boston". This is Magic after playing 5 seasons!!!
In 1981 vs Houston in the playoffs, in the deciding game 3 in LA, Magic shot 2 of 14 and 6 of 11 FT ( 2 misses late in the game) and then shot an airball on the last possession. In 1983 Finals, LA gets swept by the Sixers and Magic shoots 40.3% in the series and commits a record 24 turnovers in 4 games. In 1984 Finals vs Boston plays poorly in clutch moments during several games. In 1985 Finals Magic was solid but lets not forget Kareem was the 1985 FMVP and the reason LA finally beat Boston. In the 91 Finals LA wins game 1 in OT and then Bulls sweep LA in the next 4 games = Magic getting assists but only shooting 41.3% Magic was never a good defender and we can find bad games and bad series on any player if we want to. My vote is for Jokic and his career is far from over.

D@mn OP gets body slammed

Another backfire thread to add to OP's collection.

[tpols]

Yup. Beat 42, 37 and 39 win juggernauts to get to the finals. Joker otoh, is feasting on the stacked west while Embiid is out injuring his opponents in frustration because he loses 4-1 in the first round of the weak east with Maxey averaging an efficient 30 ppg.

I was looking at Murray vs Maxeys numbers in the 1st round and holy shit...

Maxey straight blew him away. If Yolk had Maxey the league would be in even more trouble. I honestly don't think Philly even makes the playoffs with Murray. They barely made it as is and Maxey was way more available and productive.

The fact that this clown OP can't see how wide the gap is between Jokic and Embiid leads me to believe we may be witnessing one of the greatest examples of cognitive dissonance in modern day civilization. He's been mind ****ed into oblivion.

[Norcaliblunt]

Jokic has never led a number one offense or a team to the best record.

He hasn’t even turned any of his teammates into all time greats or stars. For a passing wizard like Jokic to continue to have such horrible teammates says a lot about him.

Every passing savant from Magic, Kidd, Nash, to Chris Paul have all been hailed to make their teammates better. So why are the Jokic stans arguing how bad his teammates are? What he doesn’t make them better like a real floor general does?

[tontoz]

Jokic has never led a number one offense or a team to the best record.

He hasn’t even turned any of his teammates into all time greats or stars. For a passing wizard like Jokic to continue to have such horrible teammates says a lot about him.

Every passing savant from Magic, Kidd, Nash, to Chris Paul have all been hailed to make their teammates better. So why are the Jokic stans arguing how bad his teammates are? What he doesn’t make them better like a real floor general does?

What were Gordon and KCP doing before they got to Denver?

Denver traded bench scrub Monte Morris for KCP. They traded Gary Harris/RJ Hampton to get Gordon. How are those guys doing now? Let's not pretend like these guys had a lot of value around the league before getting traded to Denver.

James Worthy was the number 1 pick in the draft

[Xiao Yao You]

Has Jokic ever led a #1 offense?

'16 DEN: 17th
'17 DEN: 4th
'18 DEN: 6th
'19 DEN: 6th
'20 DEN: 5th
'21 DEN: 7th
'22 DEN: 6th
'23 DEN: 5th
'24 DEN: 5th

'21-'24 w/Jokic: 118.2 ORTG
'21-'24 w/o Jokic: 111.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +6.5

During Jokic's peak, we haven't seen an offense ranked higher than 5th. Magic had the luxury of a stacked team coming in, but what about after Kareem fell off, from '87 onward?

'87 LAL: 1st
'88 LAL: 2nd
'89 LAL: 1st
'90 LAL: 1st
'91 LAL: 5th

'87-'91 w/Magic: 114.7 ORTG
'87-'91 w/o Magic: 106.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +8.0

The samples are small for games missed (24 for Jokic and 25 for Magic), but I think it does count for something given the games are equal and seemingly large enough.

In 1996, LA had a 115.0 ORTG with Magic and a 110.2 ORTG without him. Basically they were a 2nd ranked offense with him and a 9th ranked offense without him. And that's a 36 year old Magic.

I'm also curious about why you think his scoring wasn't enough? He had multiple seasons average 22-24 PPG during that stretch while also dishing 12-13 assists. That's pretty insane.

By a pass first pg in an era where pg werent expected ro carry the s oring load

[Norcaliblunt]

What were Gordon and KCP doing before they got to Denver?

Denver traded bench scrub Monte Morris for KCP. They traded Gary Harris/RJ Hampton to get Gordon. How are those guys doing now? Let's not pretend like these guys had a lot of value around the league before getting traded to Denver.

KCP was a LA fan favorite champion, and Gordon was / is a one of a kind freak athlete with a lot of potential. Both top 10 lottery picks and the kind of glue guys that a Magic, Nash, or Paul could make all stars out of, and lead number one offensives and best records with. Especially Gordon. Nash would make Gordon an all star easy.

[tontoz]

KCP was a LA fan favorite champion, and Gordon was / is a one of a kind freak athlete with a lot of potential. Both top 10 lottery picks and the kind of glue guys that a Magic, Nash, or Paul could make all stars out of, and lead number one offensives and best records with. Especially Gordon. Nash would make Gordon an all star easy.

Then why didn't Denver have to give up more to trade for them?

[Norcaliblunt]

Then why didn't Denver have to give up more to trade for them?

Because they were dealing with completely lost franchises dumping dudes like the Magic and Wizards.

[tontoz]

Because they were dealing with completely lost franchises dumping dudes like the Magic and Wizards.

So those lost franchises didn't accept calls from the other 29 teams? Cool story bro

[Mask the Embiid]

Excuse me, Embiid lost 4-2, and he nearly made it past the 2nd round a couple of times. It should frankly be him getting compared to Magic, not this fat overrated Euro slob.

When embiid sits out games in the playoffs because he's hurt "he's soft". When he plays through a torn menicus and loses he's a "choke artist". Embiid misses a game in Denver "he's embitch". He plays the next game then tears a ligament in his knee he's "embelish" or "embrittle". So the paradigm yall have created is a lose lose for embiid. Nothing he does is acceptable. we all know if he was healtthy this season he would of won mvp....we all know jokic's 1st mvp year if he was healthy that year he was leading mvp votes. You pick and poke at all his injury riddled playoff runs and call him soft or sensitive and then you wonder why he snaps in the knicks series...

[tontoz]

When embiid sits out games because he's hurt "he's soft". When he plays through a torn menicus and loses he's a choke artist. Embiid misses a game in denver he's embitch. He plays the next game then tears a ligament in his knee he's embelish or embrittle. So the paradigm yall have created is a lose lose for embiid. Nothing he does is accetable. we all know if he was healtthy this season he would of won mvp....we all know jokic's 1st mvp year if he was healthy that year he was leading mvp votes. You pick and poke at all his injury riddled playoff and call him soft or sensative and then you wonder why he snaps in the knicks series...

If Embiid wasn't constantly flopping and hitting the ground maybe he wouldn't be hurt all the time. Jokic hardly ever hits the ground.

When you are 7'2 300 pounds falling to the ground is a serious impact. Stay on your feet ffs.

[Norcaliblunt]

So those lost franchises didn't accept calls from the other 29 teams? Cool story bro

So every single team in the league had the need, the roster spots, and the competent GM’s / owners to make those calls. Cool story bro.

Oh and btw Charles freaking Barkley was traded straight up for Jeff Hornacek and 2 no name bums. That means Barkley is only as good as Hornacek or whatever his supposed “value” was at that particular moment in time within those set of circumstances? Lmao.

[Mask the Embiid]

Everyone knows he would of beat the hawks if he was healthy.....everyone knows he would of beat toronto if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the heat if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the celtics if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the knicks if he was healthy......yet you sit there with a str8 face llike he didnt take most of these teams to 7 games at 50% health and the heat series he was at 10% health..... 10%! He had a broken thumb on his shooting hand(he literally couldn't shoot the ball at all).....a broken face......no conditioning......like......just cut it the fk out.....YOU ALL KNOW HE WOULD OF WON THE BUTLER YEAR! You all know he would of a won a ring the celtics in 7 year.....HE owns jokic....he would never lose to him in the finals.....ever...just stop it

[tontoz]

So every single team in the league had the need, the roster spots, and the competent GM’s / owners to make those calls. Cool story bro.

Oh and btw Charles freaking Barkley was traded straight up for Jeff Hornacek and 2 no name bums. That means Barkley is only as good as Hornacek or whatever his supposed “value” was at that particular moment in time within those set of circumstances? Lmao.

Barkley was a UFA and could have walked for nothing if they didn't trade him, and they still got an All-Star for him. Hornacek made the All-Star game the year before.

Gordon wasn't a UFA. He still had 2 years left on his deal and it wasn't an expensive one. Not hard to fit $18 million for a good player. KCP was even cheaper. It is a lot easier to aquire guys making under $20 million/yr.