22-yr old Kobe was champ, 1st option over peak Shaq vs Spurs & BETTER than 22-yr Ant

[ImKobe]

Your statement is completely untrue about Duncan. In fact, no one thinks about him at all, which is clearly worse than whatever perspective fans have on Kobe.

But yes, when discussing the GOAT standard, you in fact do need the FMVP to go along with your rings. It's why MJ stands at the top still and why Lebron stands in second place all time.

It's not. People count his 5 rings like he won them all as the best player on the team. I only really see the FMVP argument used against Kobe and Steph to discredit what they did in the runs that they weren't FMVP. I'm not talking about Kobe vs MJ here. You're not a sidekick just because you didn't win FMVP. Was Steph a sidekick in 2015? Of course not, he was clearly the best player on the team, even when they robbed him of his Finals MVP.

[Axe]

Yes, because a Finals MVP discredits the previous 3 rounds in '01 and him being the best 4th quarter/clutch player in the Playoffs that year.. People don't do this shit with Duncan, they give him full credit for '07 and '14 and he wasn't FMVP then.

Dude, the lakers used to be stacked bt. And we all know that shaq was the veteran alpha of the team during those days...

[StrongLurk]

It's not. People count his 5 rings like he won them all as the best player on the team. I only really see the FMVP argument used against Kobe and Steph to discredit what they did in the runs that they weren't FMVP. I'm not talking about Kobe vs MJ here. You're not a sidekick just because you didn't win FMVP. Was Steph a sidekick in 2015? Of course not, he was clearly the best player on the team, even when they robbed him of his Finals MVP.

No one does that with Duncan. Everyone knows TP and Kawhi came away with FMVPs and no one considered Duncan the best player on the 07/14 teams.

Also Curry did not play well enough to win FMVP in 2015.

You need the FMVP along with the ring when discussing the GOAT standard. MJ set this standard for the modern era. It is what it is.

[ImKobe]

Dude, the lakers used to be stacked bt. And we all know that shaq was the alpha of the team during those days...

Lol yet Phil and Shaq both treated Kobe as the best player in the world during that '01 title run. How was Shaq the alpha when Kobe was the best clutch/4th quarter player in the Playoffs and was clearly the better player through 3 rounds of that run? Beating down on an inferior Sixers' squad that had no chance of winning the series does not change what KB did that year.

[Axe]

Lol yet Phil and Shaq both treated Kobe as the best player in the world during that '01 title run. How was Shaq the alpha when Kobe was the best clutch/4th quarter player in the Playoffs and was clearly the better player through 3 rounds of that run? Beating down on an inferior Sixers' squad that had no chance of winning the series does not change what KB did that year.

Maybe. I won't ruin you if that's what you think about their playoff run 23 years ago. But it doesn't change the fact that kobe was still young before and in the process of maturing while shaq was at the right age plus his huge size made him more badass that fitted the definition of being a true alpha.

[Lebron23]

Always knew you were a Kobetard. The worst finals performer among the top 12 players of all time

[Carbine]

No one does that with Duncan. Everyone knows TP and Kawhi came away with FMVPs and no one considered Duncan the best player on the 07/14 teams.

Also Curry did not play well enough to win FMVP in 2015.

You need the FMVP along with the ring when discussing the GOAT standard. MJ set this standard for the modern era. It is what it is.

Duncan was unequivocally the best player on the '07 Spurs. Unless you mean just the finals of '07, which was a debate. If you value 6 extra ppg on better efficiency over a massive massive advantage on defense for Duncan, massive edge in the boards, had more assists, less turnovers than Parker too.

Bowen + Duncan's defensive prowess in slowing Bron down was the biggest reason they swept the Cavs. It also started the fast break where Parker did a lot of his damage.

[FireDavidKahn]

Haven't been on here much recently, since when did OP become so insecure about Edwards?

It's weird because Ant is an old school player.

3ball should be ALL over him.

[NBAGOAT]

ant will improve more than kobe did from 01 to his prime. 01 likely a top 5 year in kobes career

[3ba11]

It's weird because Ant is an old school player.

3ball should be ALL over him.

How is Ant old-school?

He's a typical modern player that seeks 3's and layups via a "down-hill" style that isn't 5-man basketball, so it lacks the chemistry needed for great-performing casts, aka great teams.

So he isn't old-school at all - he embodies the new school ball-dominance as much as anyone.. And his mid-range efficiency is horrific, along with his efficiency on paint shots outside the restricted - these areas are where players in previous eras LIVED... It's true that previous eras have the same edge on 2-pointers that today's era has on 3's.

Of course, MJ shot better on threes at today's volumes than Ant.. From 85-93', MJ shot 36.4% on threes in games where he had 3+ attempts, and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only)... Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes without practice (36-39%), he would shoot over 40% with practice in today's game.

[WhiteKyrie]

I would consider them about equal. 2024 nuggets are better than the 2001 Spurs, I think.

They’re both led by a similar quality level of superstar, but Denver has the superior talented supporting cast. Particularly second, third and fourth options … they also played in a much more competitive western conference this year, their record is basically the exact same, but Denver played in a deeper western conference.

Not only that but Kobe Bryant was playing off prime/Peak Shaquille O’Neal. Anthony Edwards next best player is often inconsistent, and soft as hell Karl Anthony Towns.

[WhiteKyrie]

Playoffs 2001 Spurs after Duncan

David Robinson 17 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg
Antonio Daniels 14 ppg, 2 rpg, 3 apg
Derek Anderson 8 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg

Playoff 2024 Nuggets after Jokic

Jamal Murray 19 ppg, 5 rpg, 6 apg
Michael Porter 17 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg
Aaron Gordon 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 5 apg

I forgot how beastly David Robinson still was even though he was no longer a superstar, but besides their interior defense, which should affect Shaquille O’Neal the most. The nugget supporting cast is way better, both offensively and especially defensively. On the perimeter, primarily, which is what Ant is going up against. KCP and Gordon are good defenders.

[ImKobe]

ant will improve more than kobe did from 01 to his prime. 01 likely a top 5 year in kobes career

Could've said the same for Wade in '06. Shit happens man. This is Ant's athletic peak. Kobe's athletic prime/peak lasted until '03 and he had so many injuries after that but he was definitely far more skilled in the late 2000s compared to his '00-'03 self.

[WhiteKyrie]

Young Wade didn’t show as much skill and refinement as current Ant.

[rmt]

Your statement is completely untrue about Duncan. In fact, no one thinks about him at all, which is clearly worse than whatever perspective fans have on Kobe.

But yes, when discussing the GOAT standard, you in fact do need the FMVP to go along with your rings. It's why MJ stands at the top still and why Lebron stands in second place all time.

I guess you think Iggy deserved the FMVP over Steph. It should be the player most important to winning.

As far as 2007 Finals, the most important thing was defending/neutralizing Lebron - Bowen shadowing him and Duncan keeping him out of the lane (since Lebron's jump shot was crap back then) - not a favorable (offensive) matchup vs a hobbled Boobie Gibson. Spurs' (veteran, versatile, excellent offense/defense) win was never in doubt after limiting Lebron.

The Spurs' focus was on limiting Shaq - not Kobe. That's (past) prime DRob on Shaq with prime Duncan helping. Similar to Ben Wallace, Rasheed and McDyess on Duncan. Calling Kobe (or Manu) 1st option is a farce - Shaq was a BEAST.